245 replies to this topic

[Axe99]

Aromaci, on 22 September 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

My opinions on MGSV may soften over time. We'll see.

For the moment, though, we'll call you Solid Aromaci .

[Aromaci]

On fucking point.

[GasClown]

Still in Afghanistan... haven't played it for ages though.

[Axe99]

So y'all know, Smokey's internet is playing up - once it's sorted, I'm sure he'll drop by and chime in .

[SmokeyPSD]

Eehhhh, sorry Aromaci, I couldn't even watch it all. In the end he's still just talking about his personal expectations for the installment and that's stopping a real discussion outside of oh knows look what they've done the entire series is ruined now. No matter how dressed up it is in fan knowledge.
I disagree that Kojima effectively had to deliver on what people expected like him and that's it.. Metal Gear has always gone against expectations.He does it exactly because people want him to stay in his little box doing metal gear the way they want again and again forever.


The broad brush strokes of seeing Big Boss take a dark path, you see that, hands down too.  

Spoiler

what was the biggest thing he was against? Using solider's as tools. We literally see him use "one of his best men" as a smoke screen to further his goals.  I get that if your so angry about everything you might miss what's going on under the surface but there is more going on than just a cheap 4th wall trick which is what Bunny is making it out to be..

[SmokeyPSD]

disingenuous to make out like there's an us and them divide between critics and gamers too.  A loud minority does not make a majority and a heck of a lot of people are currently enjoying it outside of the people screaming about lack of/cut content etc continuously. Honestly, it has the largest playtime and scale out of all the series so couldn't disagree more with the negativity which has started to swirl around.

Lol I didn't mean to come off that harsh.

[Aromaci]

'oh knows look what they've done the entire series is ruined now.' ahh.. yeah that's the point. That's why fans don't like the game. That's why it is a bad MGS game. It has nothing to do with playtime and scale.

If you didn't watch it then how can you comment on its value?

You can't deny that the game's story is unfinished. It just is. And it's poorly written and executed. Ch 2 is a joke. Things happen and then are dropped for no reason and the game butchers good characters like Ocelot. The quality that has been in other MGS games is not there. We had certain expectation because Kojima gave them to us with trailers that stated things that were not in the final product. If you don't care then I can only imagine it is because you don't care about the story.


Yes there is a somewhat cleaver meta-narrative but it is at the expense of the actual narrative, which is what 4 did as well and was worse for it. A lest with MGS2 the meta-narrative was cleaver and executed flawlessly.

[SmokeyPSD]

Aromaci, on 15 October 2015 - 02:26 AM, said:

'oh knows look what they've done the entire series is ruined now.' ahh.. yeah that's the point. That's why fans don't like the game. That's why it is a bad MGS game. It has nothing to do with playtime and scale.

If you didn't watch it then how can you comment on its value?

You can't deny that the game's story is unfinished. It just is. And it's poorly written and executed. Ch 2 is a joke. Things happen and then are dropped for no reason and the game butchers good characters like Ocelot. The quality that has been in other MGS games is not there. We had certain expectation because Kojima gave them to us with trailers that stated things that were not in the final product. If you don't care then I can only imagine it is because you don't care about the story.


Yes there is a somewhat cleaver meta-narrative but it is at the expense of the actual narrative, which is what 4 did as well and was worse for it. A lest with MGS2 the meta-narrative was cleaver and executed flawlessly.

I watched about a 3rd, bunny is just too much sometimes. See I had no problem with MGS4 either and from memory not many people did when it first came out. Ofcourse I care about story, it's mgs. MGS has prolly played a big part in me being interested in games and a appreciation that they can say things, discuss important issues just as much as other mediums like film. I'm not seeing how that's missing from V, at all.

I'm just obviously in the camp that is appreciating what is there and isn't thinking there's some big missing part which makes everything come together somehow. MGS4 changed drastically when it was in development too, who are we to comment on what did or didn't make it in, especially with Konami in such disarray I'm glad we got Phantom Pain at all and in a much more polished state than most games right now. I watched all the trailers too and I'm just not feeling that it's some big betrayal at all.

See I don't agree at all that the quality isn't there. I love Ocelot in it... Troy Baker delivers an amazing performance. I agree that we probably didn't get all that was intended but that doesn't detract from what is for me.

[Aromaci]

"MGS4 changed drastically when it was in development too, who are we to comment on what did or didn't make it in."
Yeah but MGS4 had a complete story, it didn't suddenly stop halfway through. You didn't get to Act 3 and then have it just end.

'...isn't thinking there's some big missing part which makes everything come together somehow.'
Well when all the promotional material for the game said it would and it doesn't I feel more than justified.

I also can't agree with Baker's performance being great. It was so flat and boring. Half the problem was the writing. He was an exposition machine with no interesting dialogue and missing any character he had in the previous games. Ocelot is an oddball and there was non of that. All he did was talk, he had no real reason to be there. (If I hear 'Vocal cord Paracites' and 'Wolbachia' one more time! )

And Skull Face was such a disappointing villain.

90% of what happens in this game is of no actual consequence and the stuff that is, most of that makes me face palm.

[SmokeyPSD]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree Didn't have a problem with Ocelot's writing at all or any of the writing and no problems with continuity with his character in MGS3 for instance.

Every time I've heard a treatment/interpretation like Bunny's there's 10 more theories from fans which don't involve saying it's an utter unfinished, flawed mess that trashes the series legacy. I find those much more engaging.

[Aromaci]

How can you say it's not unfinished when the last 'mission' appears out of no where after you complete certain arbitrary conditions. They give you the twist out of now where with no context. It just happens and then credits. Its like saying 'oh by the way here's the twist' There is no build up, the story never works towards the twist it just happens. It makes it feel like an after thought. The story has no ending, it just doesn't. It's like the 3rd act is missing.

Spoiler

You do the mission where you kill your men, see the ashes scene and then bam! Truth mission, were all you do is replay the first mission again to get a different cut-scene at the end. What kind of final mission is that? Again with no context the game just makes you do it again, why? It's such poor game design.

[SmokeyPSD]

Aromaci, on 15 October 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

How can you say it's not unfinished when the last 'mission' appears out of no where after you complete certain arbitrary conditions. They give you the twist out of now where with no context. It just happens and then credits. Its like saying 'oh by the way here's the twist' There is no build up, the story never works towards the twist it just happens. It makes it feel like an after thought. The story has no ending, it just doesn't. It's like the 3rd act is missing.

Spoiler

You do the mission where you kill your men, see the ashes scene and then bam! Truth mission, were all you do is replay the first mission again to get a different cut-scene at the end. What kind of final mission is that? Again with no context the game just makes you do it again, why? It's such poor game design.

Look at it from another way, how is it different than getting the "true" ending from Peace Walker? A lot of people missed it because the requirements weren't clear.

Your right about the 3rd act thing because data miners have found the markers left but Konami has literally dissolved Kojima Productions, this is it. I'm happy that we got a voiced presentation of it all at least. There's not going to be a free extended ending dlc like Mass Effect no matter how much outcry there is. They're done with games. I don't see how what is known of chapter 3 actually being finished would've changed the ending as we know it though. the "truth" is still the same and would still be dividing fans.

[Aromaci]

With Peace Walker the 'twist' happens after the 'main story' is complete. It was like a second ending. In MGSV the 'Truth' mission appears when the 'main story' isn't complete. There isn't even a first ending.

The 'Truth' may have been the same but if Konami hadn't decided to release the game as is Kojima may have been able to deliver the twist in a way that was more complete and structured. But yes even if he had done that it would still be bad. I'll stand by the fact that it is a mess of a game.


You're right though, nothing wrong with the writing at all...

[SmokeyPSD]

That's not bad writing, that's just how MGS has always rolled, wearing it's influences on it's sleeve like the stylized spaghetti western. Like Kaz saying they played us like a damn fiddle in Ground Zeroes. That line has been in most of the games with a different instrument lol.

[Aromaci]

Yeah, probably a bad example. What I'm really getting at is that most of the dialogue is not interesting. It just bland exposition. Most of it lacks character. I would argue MGSV takes itself too seriously.

[Axe99]

Hahaha, I tolds ya Smokey would be back .  Interesting discussion - am hoping after Tropico and Blood Bowl 2 I've got a bit more zip so I can give it a play as well and get the context of what you're both talking about .

[SmokeyPSD]

Aromaci, on 15 October 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

Yeah, probably a bad example. What I'm really getting at is that most of the dialogue is not interesting. It just bland exposition. Most of it lacks character. I would argue MGSV takes itself too seriously.

I've had a similar conversation before, the thing is with Child Soldiers and various other things being at the forefront and not just subtext the campiness/lightness of the series past would've been a bit out of place with what's explored. Compared to Ground Zeroes alone it's still lighter and still has the humour that makes mgs what it is too.

[Aromaci]

Well, yeah but Skull Face is super campy. He's like a comic book villain in his speech and ineptitude. The Child Soldiers are non issue as well. You find them, rescue them and then... nothing. They barley play a role after that. If he wanted to be 'taboo' he could have had Snake use them, but he didn't. Snake just took them in and kept them away from battle. So not really taboo. Kojima didn't explore the moral and ethical dimensions of child soldiers at all.

[spectre51]

Latest patch added a hidden extra. Spoilers for after Mission 45.

Spoiler

Found on Reddit, the latest patch allows you to get Quiet back if you replay the mission you first meet her in, Mission 11 "Cloaked in Silence" 7 times. The mission name will then change and you play it again and she will return to Mother Base.

[SmokeyPSD]

spectre51, on 11 November 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

Latest patch added a hidden extra. Spoilers for after Mission 45.

Spoiler

Found on Reddit, the latest patch allows you to get Quiet back if you replay the mission you first meet her in, Mission 11 "Cloaked in Silence" 7 times. The mission name will then change and you play it again and she will return to Mother Base.

Hoooly shit yes! Much needed!