245 replies to this topic

[Axe99]

That looks very, very slick .

[Aromaci]

Very much looking forward to it. Fingers crossed.

[Aromaci]

My immediate reaction to the end of the story.

Spoiler

I really didn't like the end of the story [THE ending]. It kinda ruined everything I'd done in the game story wise. I get what Kojima was trying to say and it is quite cleaver in how he does it and it makes for a cool meta-narrative or sub-text (and Kojima is all about that meta) and I can appreciate it for that but I still feel a bit disappointed as I didn't really get the story I was promised or I thought the series deserved or needed to tie it all together. Also it feels as though half the game is missing, like they couldn't finish it in time. I'm so disappointed right now. Kojima messed up.
https://youtu.be/-B4JIHh5Jqk <-  Part of the game that never was.

[Aromaci]

I need to know what happened to this game!

[Axe99]

Aromaci, on 19 September 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

I need to know what happened to this game!

What do you mean Aro?  Apologies if it's linked to the spoiler above, as haven't read it, or if I'm just being really dopey .

[Aromaci]

Let's just say MGS V failed to deliver on several fronts.

[Axe99]

Aromaci, on 19 September 2015 - 11:48 PM, said:

Let's just say MGS V failed to deliver on several fronts.

Interesting, although disappointing as well.  Give me a few months and I'll know what you're talking about .

[SmokeyPSD]

Aromaci, on 19 September 2015 - 11:48 PM, said:

Let's just say MGS V failed to deliver on several fronts.

I'm done now with the main story too Aro but I'm not disappointed like you. I've loved it but I understand where your coming from. It all feels bittersweet for me.  

Spoiler

Did you listen to the tapes that unlock after the secret mission cause they go along way to offer closure

I don't think it's a spoiler to say it's clear that a lot of story didn't make it to release. But with a budget that reached 80 million already while Konami decided to completely implode on itself and cause chaos it's amazing what we did get, with Kojima and his team managing to hold the line for the 5 year cycle through it all.

For something "unfinished" it's been one of the most memorable games I've played in a long time and I don't even feel done yet. Trouble free too unlike Witcher 3. The Fox Engine will go down as such wasted potential which literally cost millions. It could've driven amazing multi-platform releases well into the future.

[Aromaci]

Spoiler

The tapes give you some things but they feel like a cop-out because they didn't finish the story.

Kojima tried to do too much. He tried to make MGS open world, change his story telling style and develop a new engine. It was too much at once and as a result none of it worked. Most of the world you 'explore' is dead and boring with nothing going on. All that traveling through nothingness is ridiculous. So of course you end up using the heli all the time to avoid it. Making the open world pointless. Oh and don't even start on how long the game makes you wait to travel in and out of areas.

The only AI are soldiers who stand around and do nothing. The Soviets are supposed to be at war but you never see their enemies, nor so you see any civilians or anyone/thing else. MGS4 had armies fighting each other that you could interact with and influence. Way to take it a step backwards.

And then there is the story

Spoiler

First of all it's not even a complete story. The game just ends out of no where with nearly all plot threads still unresolved. They have the scene with the ashes and then all of a sudden, 'Hey, here's new mission out of no where with no context as to why it appears now. Oh it's just the first mission AGAIN so you can get a new scene that retcons something that didn't need fixing'. The End. WTF! This was supposed to be the story of how Big Boss turned 'bad' but it isn't, it literally can't be. It makes it feel as though everything you did in the game was kinda pointless.

I would have preferred it if Kojima had made a linear game and concentrated on giving us a full story. It's so bad it kinda makes me prefer 4.

Spoiler

I know that was ranty but it had to be said.

[spectre51]

You seen this Aro? This article on Kotaku with vid of a deleted scene from the Collectors Edition might give you some closure on things if you haven't scene it yet.

Obviously end/after game spoilers for anyone that hasn't finished.

[SmokeyPSD]

Aromaci, on 20 September 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:

Spoiler

The tapes give you some things but they feel like a cop-out because they didn't finish the story.

Kojima tried to do too much. He tried to make MGS open world, change his story telling style and develop a new engine. It was too much at once and as a result none of it worked. Most of the world you 'explore' is dead and boring with nothing going on. All that traveling through nothingness is ridiculous. So of course you end up using the heli all the time to avoid it. Making the open world pointless. Oh and don't even start on how long the game makes you wait to travel in and out of areas.

The only AI are soldiers who stand around and do nothing. The Soviets are supposed to be at war but you never see their enemies, nor so you see any civilians or anyone/thing else. MGS4 had armies fighting each other that you could interact with and influence. Way to take it a step backwards.

And then there is the story

Spoiler

First of all it's not even a complete story. The game just ends out of no where with nearly all plot threads still unresolved. They have the scene with the ashes and then all of a sudden, 'Hey, here's new mission out of no where with no context as to why it appears now. Oh it's just the first mission AGAIN so you can get a new scene that retcons something that didn't need fixing'. The End. WTF! This was supposed to be the story of how Big Boss turned 'bad' but it isn't, it literally can't be. It makes it feel as though everything you did in the game was kinda pointless.

I would have preferred it if Kojima had made a linear game and concentrated on giving us a full story. It's so bad it kinda makes me prefer 4. *gags*

Spoiler

I know that was ranty but it had to be said.

Wow don't feel any of that Aro, it's all about being in complete control of infiltration every step of the way for the first time in the series to me and feels like a natural progression.
Like showing the complete journey to the fortress in mgs3 only you get to do it again and again on your own terms with no cutescenes. From approach, inside and exfiltration, no control taken away from you whatsoever and spoiled for options. You have the survival elements from 3, battle/ai dynamics in 4, weather in 2, base building from peace walker, etc it's all a culmination here. The open world is an extension of  the series stealth gameplay not so much about going from point to point on the open plain looking at random things to me. you make yourself clear objectives and if I find myself thinking it will be too long/hard to travel I'll think of a way around it like just deliver myself close by in a cardboard box.

The reason your not seeing the Soviets in actual combat in the area is they're an occupying force in the region, it's not actually a warzone. It doesn't seem to be out of place what you see in the region and you even see a bit of Soviet Propaganda down saying that they're are there to stay on billboards etc. You are literally the influencing force in the region as they gear up preparing for you with NV, gasmasks, landmines etc.

[Aromaci]

SmokeyPSD, on 20 September 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

The open world is an extension of  the series stealth gameplay not so much about going from point to point on the open plain looking at random things to me.

So it didn't need to be open world then? It could have just been a series of Omega Camp sized maps that give you the option as to which side to infiltrate from. Seems to me you can do everything you described without making an open world.

[SmokeyPSD]

Aromaci, on 21 September 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

So it didn't need to be open world then? It could have just been a series of Omega Camp sized maps that give you the option as to which side to infiltrate from. Seems to me you can do everything you described without making an open world.

Wouldn't have fantastic stuff like being able to trail convoys on horseback comes to mind, some of the mission areas take place in large areas of the zones. Or basically any of the emergent gameplay. So much that happens in encounters now isn't scripted.

It gives a level of organicness and unpredictability the open environment and design which just wasn't there before.

Kojima himself called this free infiltration which he wanted to do all along but the technology just was not there.

[Aromaci]

At the end of the day I'd trade all that in for an actual story.

[Aromaci]

OK because I can't let this go here are some more of my thoughts on the ending and what it could mean for the MGS canon. Goes without saying, Major League SPOILERS

Spoiler

While I'm not a fan of how the game ended. I thought it was way too abrupt and left of field with no real closure or context but anyway, it's at thing now. I'm gonna break down Episode 46 and what I think could be a possible interpretation and what Kojima maybe driving at.

So at the end of E46 it is revealed that we haven't been playing as Big Boss (B.B.) but his doppelganger, Venom Snake (V.S.), who originally was the medic in the chopper at the end of Ground Zeros. The real BB has gone into hiding to work from the shadows in order to create his free state. V.S. is left as a decoy to his enemies and to continue the legend of BB. The very last scene we see is V.S. in Outer Heaven, revealing that is in fact this version of B.B. that Solid Snake fights and kills in Metal Gear 1 and that the B.B. at Zanzibar Land in Metal Gear 2 is the real B.B. (Hence why he can die twice). This means that at some point V.S. must have taken control of Outer Heaven while B.B. went to Foxhound. The tape we see in the player at the end of MGSV has the name of the operation that took place in MG1 meaning that B.B. informed V.S. that Solid Snake was coming. So was B.B. plan to start the uprising using V.S. in his stead?  But it is B.B. that sends Solid Snake into Outer Heaven, so did he want Snake to succeed or fail? He already sent Grey Fox who was captured so if the object was failure why send a second operative? It is clear that after the fall of Outer Heaven B.B. tried again in Zanzibar Land, so maybe the first attempt was genuine. I would say it's interesting, even clear twist but the trouble for me is the way it was implemented and revealed. It is kinda cool but I would have preferred just to play as the real B.B.

What is clear is that V.S. represents the player and just as B.B. hands over his legend to V.S., Kojima is handing over the legend and future of B.B. to us the players.

I'll no doubt have more thoughts at some stage.

[SmokeyPSD]

Aromaci, on 21 September 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

OK because I can't let this go here are some more of my thoughts on the ending and what it could mean for the MGS canon. Goes without saying, Major League SPOILERS

Spoiler

While I'm not a fan of how the game ended. I thought it was way too abrupt and left of field with no real closure or context but anyway, it's at thing now. I'm gonna break down Episode 46 and what I think could be a possible interpretation and what Kojima maybe driving at.

So at the end of E46 it is revealed that we haven't been playing as Big Boss (B.B.) but his doppelganger, Venom Snake (V.S.), who originally was the medic in the chopper at the end of Ground Zeros. The real BB has gone into hiding to work from the shadows in order to create his free state. V.S. is left as a decoy to his enemies and to continue the legend of BB. The very last scene we see is V.S. in Outer Heaven, revealing that is in fact this version of B.B. that Solid Snake fights and kills in Metal Gear 1 and that the B.B. at Zanzibar Land in Metal Gear 2 is the real B.B. (Hence why he can die twice). This means that at some point V.S. must have taken control of Outer Heaven while B.B. went to Foxhound. The tape we see in the player at the end of MGSV has the name of the operation that took place in MG1 meaning that B.B. informed V.S. that Solid Snake was coming. So was B.B. plan to start the uprising using V.S. in his stead?  But it is B.B. that sends Solid Snake into Outer Heaven, so did he want Snake to succeed or fail? He already sent Grey Fox who was captured so if the object was failure why send a second operative? It is clear that after the fall of Outer Heaven B.B. tried again in Zanzibar Land, so maybe the first attempt was genuine. I would say it's interesting, even clear twist but the trouble for me is the way it was implemented and revealed. It is kinda cool but I would have preferred just to play as the real B.B.

What is clear is that V.S. represents the player and just as B.B. hands over his legend to V.S., Kojima is handing over the legend and future of B.B. to us the players.

I'll no doubt have more thoughts at some stage.

Spoiler

I dont think of it as someone else. I think of it as as extending out and questioning the idea of heroes/icons or whatever name you pick. The amount of misinformation and worship that enters when someone reaches that level, like Che. The journey, comrades that die, aren't invalidated at all too.  For people who haven't played the game, and even in the game world and the average soldier on motherbase for all intents and purposes Venom Snake is Big Boss and is suffering from mental trauma of all the psycho crap that had done to him to become big boss to begin with and the crash. His sins and deeds are still Big Bosses.
Literally disappearing into that medical room collecting those pictures spending time with a paz that doesn't exist. His grip on reality isn't there.

It also gives final agency to us the players to fill the history of MGS, was this Big Boss a demon, or a hero who brought nuclear deterrence to other privater military forces littering the world through force. Is Big Bosses endpoint of Outer Heaven doomed to only bring death and set the world on fire every single time? No matter who it is? V Snake, Liquid, Big Boss himself?

I also think that had the game seen a complete uninterrupted development halfway we wouldve taken control of Big Boss proper and we would've seen events with David (Snake) so 4 chapters.

[SmokeyPSD]

If it's not dividing the community it's not a Metal Gear/Hideo Kojima game lol.

[Axe99]

I'm looking forward to reading this conversation in a couple of months' time, lol .

[GasClown]

Axe99, on 22 September 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

I'm looking forward to reading this conversation in a couple of months' time, lol .

Precisely what I've been thinking... I'm not going to be able to read this for quite a while.

[Aromaci]

My opinions on MGSV may soften over time. We'll see.