18 replies to this topic

[GraphicX]

ok another touchy feely doo-gooder topic.

what's peoples thoughts on rudd's apology, leading to the ongoing recognition of traditional land owners everywhere we turn ?

thought i'd post this up as my 6 year old daughter said to me after work last night 'today i had to say sorry to the black people for taking their land'.  i really didn't know how to reply to her & really i guess didn't in the end.  we don't have any aboriginal friends, but we sure do have black friends from nigeria who she plays with & has over all the time.

the topic of different races etc has never really been raised or even relevant at home.  we don't differentiate between people based on skin colour & our kids don't either, i'd honestly say this would be her first time ever having to address any one as a group based on colour thanks to the school (in her eyes they're just people, now they're 'black people' & i'm pretty peeved about them doing that !!!!).

at the fire station now when we have workplace health & safety meetings we have to read a spiel on recognising traditional land owners of the region (& in all honesty i don't think there were any in this area as the place is a swamp with no fresh water & any means to feed yourself) & before a movie starts at the theatre a piece is played recognising traditional owners etc.

so what are peoples thoughts on this ?  is it a case of people being overly left winged & trying to be too nice ?  is it a case of us potentially causing racism as you are referring to/pigeon-holing people by race when it's not necessary ?  or is it the way forward & this is truly making up for the terrible mess we have this country in where no one in their right mind would live here */end sarcasm* ?

[GasClown]

Quite a bit off topic (or is it?) - I was reading something about Lewis Hamilton the other day/week (see below link) - the article/blog was about him being the first ever black driver in F1. I personally never looked at him being black until I read the article... although I'm not one to judge a person by the colour of their skin.

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/27526301

Same goes for Tiger Woods or the Williams sisters who were the first in their sports (apparently) as well.

[GraphicX]

well that's how my kids are, they just go to school & play & it doesn't matter what colour the other kids skin is, they're probably more worried about whether they like dora the explorer (who's spanish isn't she lol) or barbie more than anything.  but now she's been told/shown there is a difference between skin colours, to her it wouldn't have been any different to seeing a cat with orange fur or a cat with mixed colours on the fur.

[GasClown]

GraphicX, on 03 June 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

it wouldn't have been any different to seeing a cat with orange fur or a cat with mixed colours on the fur.

Oh no, let me make this clear - I can without a doubt point out the differences between an Abyssinian, Burmese, Tonkinese, British Short Hair, Maine Coon, Russian Blue etc. I definitely know my pussy.

[AroGantz]

GasClown, on 03 June 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

the Williams sisters who were the first in their sports (apparently) as well.

I'm sure Evonne Goolagong would have something to say about that.

Back on topic, I personally think it is a load of BS, I think it is fine to recognise the Aboriginals and Islanders as the previous inhabitants butt o say 'sorry' for a nation is just wrong and is inciting more racism. Is the Queen going to apologise to me because my family had to leave Ireland due to religious persecution by the ruling Protestants and more importantly would it mean anything to me? My answer is that it would mean SFA as I am sure KRudds 'sorry' means SFA to the aboriginal people. I think it is much more important to put the resources where they need to be to give Aboriginals the same opportunities that we have and possibly start stamping out racism by showing they are equals on a level playing field.

[GasClown]

AroGantz, on 03 June 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

I'm sure Evonne Goolagong would have something to say about that.

Tell that to Lewis Hamilton (or BBC for that matter) - not me. It's written in his column on their website.

[AroGantz]

GasClown, on 03 June 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Tell that to Lewis Hamilton (or BBC for that matter) - not me. It's written in his column on their website.

Tis ok, Evonne didn't race F1

[GasClown]

AroGantz, on 03 June 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Tis ok, Evonne didn't race F1

Hey, I questioned it myself, hence why I bracketed (apparently). I'd say there'd be other dark skinned (or black) golf players out there before Tiger as well.

[GraphicX]

ok, so this went to a new level today.

i'm in the bathroom brushing my hair & i can hear the kids playing on the loungeroom.  i then hear my daughter say to my son in a teasing kinda tone 'your skins gonna go brown & you're going to be a black person' & start laughing.  never before have i heard anything of the sort from them & it's all thanks to that garbage she was 'taught' at school the other day.

so fücking frustrated & even angry about it.

[straussy240]

Thats why proper parenting is important - school these days is a battleground

[GraphicX]

how are you meant to parent that though ?  i told her off, but someone else planted that line of thought while i'm at work & she's in their care.

[Dunny]

The school system is shit and so PC.
They will never be able to stamp out bullying because they need to protect the bully?
I've been teaching my kids to ignore half the shit they learn at school and just to learn to formulate their own informed decision that they gain from outside the education system.

[Dunny]

GraphicX, on 04 June 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

how are you meant to parent that though ?  i told her off, but someone else planted that line of thought while i'm at work & she's in their care.

Teach them to love learning and then that many peoples opinions are neither correct or incorrect, just opinion. Then to gather various view point and then decide for themselves what they think.
As they get older they will know what is required as the correct response in the education system however if they can think critically about this it will stand them well for when they finish school.

[Toddy]

I can't speak for what goes on in OZ, but NZ have had a tribunal running for quite a while now that looks after indigenous (Maori) rights.

Maori tribes lodge a claim with the tribunal about lands, rights, assets etc being taken away from them when the crown came to NZ.  The tribunal goes over the claim and after extensive research usually suggests the Government of the day to issue an apology, pay for what was taken, or partly give back what was taken.  Maori usually receive a pittance of what they truly deserve but generally take it with good grace.  

However, that leaves a decent portion of NZ'ers pissed off as they do not see why they should have to pay to right the wrongs of the past.  They usually believe that they played no part in what went on, so they should not have to pay for it now.  The issue is though, that they, as NZ'ers benefit heavily from the land that was stolen.  A tiny portion of land has been given back and the tribes really do receive sweet fu*k all money in comparison to what it would be worth.  And to top if off, tax payers money is used to pay the tribes, who are in turn tax payers themselves.  So they partly fund their own payment.

It is different in NZ though, as most tribes signed a treaty to keep their governing of their land.  I don't think this happened in OZ?

[Axe99]

Good parenting Dunny .

As for the OP, that's such a complicated question, and I'm crook as a dog, so take all of this with a grain of salt (none aimed at offending, just throwing ideas around, in the interests of thinking about it, fully accepting some may be way off the mark):

- Recognising traditional ownership shouldn't be about race, it should be about the traditional owners, whoever they were.  In this case, if they were Indigenous folk, then by all means recognise them.  It's worth noting that you can be genetically made up of genes mainly from Europe/Asia/America and still be classified as Indigenous - it's an identity thing, but not one strictly linked to ones genes (although still mostly is).

- Racism is a whole 'nother issue.  There are genetic differences, but they're so minor (and the variation within a particular gene pool far larger than the variations between different 'racial' gene pools) that anyone making generalisations based on one thing or another is just dumb.  Of course, there's no shortage of dumb people out there, so it happens plenty.  That said, there are cultural traits that are a bit more distinct between different groups, but these days cultural and racial groups are so mixed up using race to approximate culture is in most cases not the brightest thing in the world to do.

- My understanding about the apology was that it was driven a lot by the stolen generation, something which didn't stop happening until forty or fifty-odd years ago so many of the affected people are still alive.  In that context, when the people who were done over by the policy are still living, I think an apology is in order.  James Hardie had to apologise and pay up for screwing over their workers (put a lot of them in jobs where they were likely to contract mesothelioma), and the nation of Australia should apologise and pay up for screwing over some of its people.  Same reason Japan apologised to China for its comfort women, an apology which was also appropriate (noting that I'm not suggesting the two treatments are of the same order of badness, no way known).

- Apologising for past treatments of people that are no longer alive gets more complicated.  A lot of stuff is inter-generational, and a lot of the Indigenous dispossession only happened in the last 100-150 years, so there will be Indigenous people alive today who are worse off because of colonisation.  That said, at a certain point, you need to move forward, and like AroGantz said, the most important thing is to provide opportunities for Indigenous people (and due to the adjustment they may need to make, positive support - ie, aid - to get opportunities in a culture they had foisted on them may be appropriate, although it's important to do it right - there are plenty of examples of help, both in Australia and overseas, where the best of intentions haven't resulted in the best of results.  Unfortunately, this is then used by people to suggest there should be no help at all, and it becomes a mess).  However, it's very easy for us, being on the right side of history, to say this - it's probably worth getting some views from people that were on the wrong side of European colonialism.

[Axe99]

Toddy, on 04 June 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

It is different in NZ though, as most tribes signed a treaty to keep their governing of their land.  I don't think this happened in OZ?

Aye, the Maori's actually fought back half-effectively against the Brits, and so while they were part of the empire, they kept a degree of autonomy for a long time, and there were actual wars fought and treaties signed.  Indigenous Australian political organisation wasn't as organised, so it was generally small-scale skirmishes, and the 'wars' that were fought weren't as clear-cut.  At least, as far as I can remember.

[GraphicX]

those examples that you gave axe, does james hardy or japan apologise at every work health & safety meeting, or before the screening of a movie or do they tell 6 year old kids to do it as well ?

how often do you have to apologise ?  i'm looking at the context of my daughter who honestly has nfi about europeans, mexicans & martians being told to apologise to people she now sees as black, whereas before they were just people, as being totally unsuitable.

re. aussie's history, it's history isn't it ?  what happened, happened.  it was formerly recognised as _now_ being wrong & an apology was issued.  is that not enough ?  you could also take the stance that european settlers *read not you, me or the postman who's kids are now being told to apologise about something they know naught about* settled australia in place of say the japanese, as there'd likely be no record even kept of their being people here before them as they'd have no doubt wiped out any inhabitants.

i'm not racist, my kids certainly aren't racist as they don't/didn't know that black people were any different to themselves & treated them like they do any person they meet.  now however my daughter sees them as 'black people' after a totally half ársed effort by the school to get her to parrot something that isn't 'education' & it's not right in my eyes.

[Jykel]

Gee I wasn't going to way into this one but . . land has been fought over since the dawn of man

It would be a strange world if global land ownership was given back to the 1st ever recorded human settlers or nomads in every area.  So how far back to you go seeking an apology . . . did the Spanish apologies to the South Americans, the mongol hordes of Genghis Khan, the Romans, etc.   ,

I am sure my viking ancestors owe more than one apology

If the schools are only looking at recent history then help give children perspective by looking back further.  

Ever nation/culture that sort to control or settle foreign lands brought with them conflict.  In todays world its just not so obvious, as our land (Australia) is being sort and bought out from under us, and we have conflict over coal seam gas and land/mining rights.

On a side note, I think we should always acknowledge and preserve the culturally significant pieces of land, be it caves with drawings or stonehenge.  Shame the Spanish didn't adhere to that when they destroyed so much in south america

[Axe99]

GraphicX, on 05 June 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

how often do you have to apologise ?  i'm looking at the context of my daughter who honestly has nfi about europeans, mexicans & martians being told to apologise to people she now sees as black, whereas before they were just people, as being totally unsuitable.

This be a very good point - I never suggested that we should be apologising all the time.  I think it'd be far better if your daughter was taught history, from a broad perspective (ie, from the perspective of the settlers and the Indigenous folk) and got to make her own mind up.

Jykel, on 05 June 2014 - 01:42 AM, said:

I am sure my viking ancestors owe more than one apology

Haha, I have no doubt they do!  Important to note that the Vikings, as well as pillaging all the way from the Ukraine to Ireland to Sicily, also were a large part of the then British culture that went and colonised half the world (not to mention having no small influence on Russian culture, and they didn't mind expanding territorially either ).

But agree - in my view, things should only be taken into account when people still affected by the dispossession are around, and from the context of moving forward, rather than dwelling in the past.